Assigned on Briefs September 1, 2017
from the Circuit Court for Marion County No. 16894 J. Curtis
trial court denied mother's petition to make her the
primary residential parent of the parties' three
children. Based upon this court's review of the facts, we
have concluded that the trial court erred in assessing the
best interest of the children and reverse the decision of the
R. App. P. 3 Appeal as of Right; Judgment of the Circuit
Court Reversed and Remanded
Kathryn R. Leiderman, Jasper, Tennessee, for the appellant,
Priscilla Brooke Wilson.
B. Bible, Jasper, Tennessee, for the appellee, Patrick Shane
D. Bennett, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which
Charles D. Susano, Jr., and Kenny W. Armstrong, JJ., joined.
D. BENNETT, JUDGE
and Procedural Background
Shane Phillips ("Father") and Priscilla Brooke
Wilson ("Mother") are the parents of three
children, Candace Amaya Phillips (born September 2003),
Kendyl Mariah Phillips (born April 2005), and Kamryn Layla
Phillips (born April 2005). Father filed for divorce in
August 2006 and obtained a default judgment on May 1, 2007.
In the final decree of divorce entered on May 1, 2007, the
trial court granted Father a divorce on grounds of
inappropriate marital conduct and abandonment, awarded him
primary custody of the three minor children, and incorporated
the Father's proposed parenting plan, pursuant to which
Mother had 125 days of parenting time per year. Mother had
parenting time with the children the last full week of each
month from Sunday at six p.m. until the following Sunday at
six p.m. Mother also had the children during the months of
June and July, with the exception of the third full week.
Mother was ordered to pay child support in the amount of
$75.01 per week. The plan provided for joint decision-making.
November 2009, the court entered a modified parenting plan
reflecting an agreement of the parties. Under the new
parenting plan, Mother had 107 days of parenting time per
year. She had parenting time with the children every week
from Friday at 2:00 p.m. until Monday at 7:30 a.m. When
school was not in session, Mother had the children from
Friday at 6:00 p.m. until Sunday at 6:00 p.m. Father had the
children the first full weekend each month. Mother was to pay
$515.00 per month in child support.
December 2011, Father filed a petition for contempt and to
modify the parenting plan. Mother filed a response and
counter-petition. In an order entered on August 15, 2012, the
trial court found that "the proof was evenly divided
between the parties" and that the evidence did not
support any change to the existing order. As to Father's
allegations that Mother was in arrears on child support and
had failed to pay her portion of medical bills, the court
found that "the proof was not sufficient to support
filed the petition at issue in this appeal on June 28, 2016.
In her petition, Mother sought a finding of contempt, a
modification of custody, and a restraining order. Mother
alleged that Father was in contempt of the November 5, 2009
permanent parenting plan for "making unilateral
decisions regarding the children's non-emergency
healthcare, religious upbringing, and extracurricular
activities, " "fail[ing] and refus[ing] to provide
[Mother] with a copy of his health insurance card for the
children, " and "intentionally violat[ing]
[Mother's] rights set forth in T.C.A. § 36-6-101,
including, specifically, subsections (1), (5), (6), (7), (8),
and (9)." Mother alleged the following substantial and
material changes of circumstances which justified a
modification of the primary residential parent and the
(a)[Mother] has remarried and now lives in Dade County,
(b)The children have a close and loving relationship with
[Mother's] spouse/their step-father and his children;
(c)Both [Mother's] and [Father's] work schedules have
changed. As a result of [Father's] work schedule the
minor children spend much of their time in the care of their
(d)The minor children are now going through puberty;
(e)[Father] and his wife are mentally and physically abusive
to the children;
(f) [Father] does not adequately or properly attend to the
children's medical needs;
(g)The oldest child's grades have suffered; and
(h) [Father] and his current wife frequently yell and fight
with each other in the presence of the children.
requested a restraining order based upon allegations of
mental and physical abuse of the children by Father and his
wife, "including, slapping, choking, jabbing in the
throat, unjustified and excessive spanking, downgrading the
children, making derogatory remarks about [Mother] to the
children, and using profane names in reference to the
children's extended family."
filed an answer and counter-petition to modify. He included
an application for a restraining order against Mother with a
verbatim restatement of the allegations contained in
Mother's application for a restraining order. After a
hearing on July 5, 2016, the trial court entered restraining
orders against both Mother and Father. The orders include the
following language: "[Mother/Father] is hereby
restrained and enjoined from discussing these proceedings
with the minor children and from permitting [her husband/his
wife] doing so."
trial of this matter took place over three days in July and
August 2016. The court heard testimony from Mother, Father,
the children's stepfather, their paternal grandmother,
and the children, Amaya, Kamryn, and Kendyl.
testified that Amaya was almost thirteen years old, and
Kamryn and Kendyl were eleven. Mother was married to Kevin
Wilson ("Stepfather"), who had two daughters of his
own. She testified that their relationship began with a few
dates in December 2012. Mother and Stepfather resided in
stated that, at the time of the last modification hearing, in
August 2012, she and her previous husband, Mr. Reed, lived in
Chattanooga and were still together. According to Mother,
Father's attorney asked her at that hearing about her
relationship with the children, about Mr. Reed's
relationship with the children, and about whether she and Mr.
Reed were getting along. Mother testified that, at the time
of the hearing, she and Mr. Reed "were getting along
okay." She stated that Mr. Reed had trouble handling the
conflicts between Mother and Father and withdrew from Mother
during the hearing. After the hearing, Mr. Reed moved out and
filed for divorce based on irreconcilable differences. Mother
was awarded the house,  which was encumbered by debt, and she
declared bankruptcy in 2013. Mother testified that she
"had a substantial amount of identity theft on my credit
from my mother and from credit cards that she had taken
further stated that the house had more debt on it that it was
worth because of declining home values in the neighborhood.
introduced photographs of her home with Stepfather. They
lived in a four-bedroom home with two bathrooms on a one-acre
lot. Kamryn and Kendyl shared a bedroom; Amaya shared a
bedroom with her stepsister, Alyssa.
time of the 2012 hearing, Mother was employed at U.S. Xpress
in Chattanooga, where she worked from January 2008 through
March 2014. Her hours were from 7:00 a.m to 4:00 p.m. or 8:00
a.m. to 5:00 p.m. at the office, with no flexibility to work
at home. Mother stated that she left that job because the
company wanted to change her work shift so that she worked
more hours, and Mother wanted to have more time to spend with
her children. Mother then became an independent contractor
for UTi Transportation, a job that allowed her to work from
home and gave her greater flexibility. The job did not pay as
well as advertised, and Mother left UTi in June 2015. She
then began working as a commercial account manager for Orkin
Pest Control in July 2015, a salaried position that also paid
commissions. Mother had a scheduled office meeting from eight
to nine on Monday morning; otherwise, she worked from home
and scheduled on-site inspections with potential customers.
testified that Father's work schedule had changed. He was
no longer available during the day, and his wife, Sonia
Phillips ("Stepmother"), also worked during the
day. When the children were not in school, they were cared
for during the workday by Stepmother's mother or
Father's mother. Mother asked to be able to care for
them, but she had only been allowed to have parenting time
with the children once during the workweek.
testified that her three girls were "very fond" of
Stepfather and his two daughters, Alyssa and Kylee. Mother
The girls [Amaya, Kamryn, and Kendyl] go to [Stepfather] a
lot to learn new things. They ask him how to do things. For
example, they asked [Stepfather] about swimming. [Stepfather]
taught them how to swim. Bikes, riding bikes, they asked him
about that. He taught them that. Kamryn is currently learning
how to play the keyboard, and he is teaching her how to do
that. He also assists them with softball all of the time at
further testified that Kylee was seventeen and Alyssa had
just turned twelve years old at the time of the hearing.
Alyssa and the twins were going into the sixth grade. Mother
described the relationship among the children:
They play actively all the time. Kamryn and Alyssa at
times-they're siblings, so they play hard, and sometimes
they don't want to speak. But Kendyl and Alyssa are
inseparable at my house. If I've got a child in a room,
the other one is right beside her. And then Amaya and Kylee
are very attached to each other. Amaya talks to Kylee a lot.
stated that the children fought like typical siblings.
Mother described the family activities they did together:
Together we go and we practice softball at Jenkins field,
which are the softball fields that are near our house. We
ride bikes near our house. The girls all have a bike. We also
go to the movies at least once per summer. We all take a
movie trip together. We go out to eat together. We cook meals
at home and eat dinner at home together. The girls do crafts
frequently at home. Amaya paints. I help her with that.
Kamryn is learning the keyboard. [Stepfather] helps her with
that. Kendyl has a large interest in catching softball, and
Kendyl and Alyssa work together for softball, even in our
front yard, with [Stepfather] because Alyssa pitches. We
have-there's just so much. We have family movie nights.
The girls just sit in our living room and we chitchat. . . .
We do so many activities together that it's really hard
to list. Once per month we do go visit [Stepfather's]
relatives . . . so that they can stay in touch with their new
cousins that they fostered a large relationship with.
stated that "the girls, " Amaya, Kendyl, and
Kamryn, historically had "great grades, " but that
Amaya went through a period earlier in 2016 when she was
concerned about her language arts grades. Amaya spoke to
Mother, reported that she had two failing grades in language
arts on a certain assignment, and Mother advised her to talk
to the teacher about allowing her to redo the assignment.
Amaya was able to replace the grades. She was also concerned
about her math grades and asked to be able to attend some
free after-school tutoring. Without consulting Mother, Father
refused to allow Amaya to attend. Mother testified that she
attempted to discuss the tutoring with Father at a softball
game, but he did not acknowledge her.
what happened when she attempted to call the girls when they
were with Father, Mother testified as follows:
Either the phone is not answered; or if I do get to speak
with the girls, they are placed on speakerphone. They let me
know that they are on speakerphone; or they are made to stay
close by, and I can hear outside them being told that they
have to stay close by. The phone conversations are also cut
short. They're told that they have to go because they
have to do homework or because they have to take a shower. It
doesn't matter what time I call. There's always a
reason they're cut short.
to Mother, the phone call monitoring had gotten worse since
2012. She stated that, due to Father's work schedule,
most of the phone interactions had to be done through
Stepmother, "and in that matter it's gotten a lot
worse." Previously, Amaya had been able to communicate
with Mother by Facetime on her iPad Touch. Mother stated that
Amaya no longer had this capability.
respect to the children's extracurricular activities,
Mother testified that Father did not involve her in the
decision-making. Rather, she stated, Father and Stepmother
made the decisions. They decided whether and when the girls
would play a sport. Mother asked if she could take the girls
to and from softball practice and games that year, but she
was only allowed to do so one time during the season. She
testified: "I would arrive at games and find out that
someone outside of [Father and Stepmother] had taken the
girls to games at times, and I was not asked." Mother
testified that, from 2012 until the hearing, she was not
consulted about decisions as to whether the girls were going
to play a particular sport. When Father or Stepmother signed
the girls up at the beginning of the season, they would not
put her contact information on the sign-up sheets. Mother
attended all but one of the girls' soccer games and
softball games; she reported that Father attended few of
Amaya's and Kendyl's softball games, and not more
than two soccer games during the season.
testified that she "received very few communications
about school activities." Father failed to inform Mother
of events such as "academy receptions, plays that have
happened during the school day, any reports that the children
have presented in front of the classroom where parents are
invited, [and] family reading nights." She only learned
of these events after the fact.
testified that Father did not notify her of the
children's medical appointments. She asked Father to
allow her to take them to the doctor, to be allowed to be
present, or to be advised of appointments. Mother either got
"no response at all" from Father or he told her
that she could not be present. For example, when Amaya was
scheduled to have a root canal, Father told Mother that she
could not be there because "only two parents were
allowed, and . . . [Stepmother] was going to go." Mother
asked again if she could be present, and Father said,
"okay, fine, you take her." Mother agreed, but
Father later changed his mind and would not allow Mother to
be there because Stepmother wanted to be there. Mother went
to the appointment anyway:
I went to the dentist visit. Amaya did not even know I was
there. She wasn't allowed to come near me. I was boxed
out. When the nurse said that two parents could go back,
[Father] and [Stepmother] went back, and [Stepmother] cried.
And [Father] boxed me out so that I could not go back.Amaya
did not know I was there at all. The only thing that I could
do was provide my insurance and payment.
further testified that Father's attitude regarding
medical appointments was that, if it was not Mother's
parenting time, she was not allowed to go. She was not
informed of medical appointments until after they occurred.
After requesting and reviewing the girls' medical records
(submitted as exhibits at trial), Mother learned that all
three had been given the HPV vaccine. She had not been
consulted about this decision.
pediatrician's office notes refer to Stepmother as
"mother" when she acted as the
"historian" at office visits. In the patient
registration records of Kamryn's dentist, Dr. Karim
Hasnani, Stepmother signed as "patient, parent or
guardian." Mother's name was not listed anywhere in
the registration information. Stepmother completed the
registration forms at the office of dentist Dr. Clay Goins in
September 2012 and signed as "parent/guardian." She
listed Mother's name, but she did not include any contact
information. Stepmother also signed a "Consent for
Treatment" form on behalf of Amaya.
expressed concern that Father did not take care of the
children's medical needs, a concern that she did not have
at the time of the hearing in 2012. Father did not take the
children for regular dental cleanings. He did not take Kamryn
for her regular six-month cleaning after she had a tooth
repaired in November 2015. The dentist's notes state that
Kamryn had "heavy calcium on lower anteriors with severe
gingivitis." Mother was not advised of the dentist's
recommendations regarding brushing and flossing. Amaya last
had a dental appointment in April 2014 with Dr. Goins. Mother
testified that "Amaya has a large gap between her two
front teeth on top." Because of this gap, Mother felt
that Amaya needed braces. Amaya was self-conscious and
insecure about her teeth.
Mother tried to talk to Father about these issues or other
medical concerns, he responded with "blank stares or
scoffs." Because she did not have the children with her
during the week, it was difficult for Mother to make medical
appointments for them, but she did find a dentist who would
do cleanings on Saturdays. Mother stated: "I'm
frequently told no about keeping or seeing or taking the
girls places unless it is, and I quote, my parenting
respect to the girls' vision, Mother testified that Amaya
started wearing reading glasses in elementary school. Father
did not allow her to bring her glasses to Mother's home.
Amaya's glasses broke, but Mother did not know at the
time when this occurred. Father did not replace the glasses.
The glasses broke when Amaya was in fifth grade, a little
over two years before the hearing. Mother tried to talk to
Father about Amaya's glasses, but she "was met again
with blank stares and walking off." When she did not get
a response from Father, Mother would also try to talk to
Stepmother, who was usually also nonresponsive. So, Mother
took all three girls to have eye exams one weekend. She noted
that Amaya had frequent headaches and that Kamryn complained
of headaches and of having to be moved forward at school.
Kamryn and Amaya were both given prescriptions for glasses,
Kamryn's for distance and Amaya's for reading. Mother
bought them both glasses. Father never responded to
Mother's request to pay his share of the cost.
medical issue of concern to Mother was acne on Amaya's
face and back. This condition caused pain and
self-consciousness for Amaya. Mother tried to speak to Father
about Amaya seeing a dermatologist. She also purchased
over-the-counter medications for Amaya's acne, but Father
would not allow Amaya to use the medications at his house.
Father would not cooperate with Mother about taking Amaya to
testified that the only time she saw the children's
report cards was "if the girls happen to get them on a
day that I pick them up." Otherwise, she would have to
go to the central office to get their grades. Mother
requested the girls' school records and received them for
the years 2012 through 2015. The custodial information shows
Father and Stepmother. Mother's name and phone number do
not appear anywhere on the school forms. Father did not
produce any document showing that Mother was listed anywhere
on the school records. Mother testified that she was not
notified in October 2015 or March 2015 of parent-teacher
conferences. Amaya was not permitted by Father to go on a
Beta Club trip in the current school year; Father did not
consult Mother about this decision, and she did not learn
about the trip until the day of the trip. The twins went on a
Beta Club trip earlier in the year that Mother did not know
about until after the fact. Parents were permitted to go on
these trips, and Mother testified that she would have
participated had she been aware of the trips.
about changes she had noticed in the children, Mother stated
that Kamryn "has become very anxious" and "is
becoming very withdrawn." Mother observed that Kamryn
would shake and cry when talking about things that worried
her, and that she would sometimes put her hand over her face
(giving the appearance, to Mother, that she thought she was
going to be hit). Kamryn would talk to Mother about things
that happened at Father's house when she would shake and
cry. Mother believed that Kamryn and Amaya needed to see a
therapist. These incidents had gotten worse over the past
year and had been "nearly constant" over the prior
described an incident when Kamryn awoke in the middle of the
night and came upstairs to Mother's bedroom crying and
shaking over concerns about the smoke detectors. Mother
contacted Father and asked about the smoke detectors at his
house; she received no response.
was problematic for the family. Mother sent Halloween
costumes to the school for the three girls to wear
trick-or-treating. The girls had picked them out themselves.
Kendyl was going to wear a homemade "minion"
costume, with face and body makeup she had chosen herself.
According to Mother's testimony, when she picked the
girls up from school on Friday, Kendyl was crying. Her
costume had been altered, and the makeup was unopened. Kendyl
was wearing different makeup, which was hard to remove and
stained her skin for several days.
purchased the twins dresses for their fourth-grade
homecoming, but the dresses were returned to her from
Father's house. The girls did not wear them to
homecoming. Mother testified that the girls were crying when
they brought back the dresses.
testified that, since 2012, the girls' attitudes about
returning to Father's house after being with her over the
weekend had changed. She had to coax them to leave her house;
they would cry and hide and find ways to delay leaving. She
recalled a recent time when she took the girls back and they
saw that Father's car was not there. The girls were
crying and did not want to go back; they got out of the car
with some coaxing, went to the door, and then turned around
and came back to the car. They sat in the car and talked and
Mother calmed them down. After more coaxing, the girls
finally got out and went in the house.
testified that she had talked to Father about how the girls
were treated at his house as compared to the other children,
how they were treated by Stepmother, and how they were
disciplined. She asked him to stop hitting them. Father
responded that the girls were exaggerating. Mother testified,
"I've been ignored or scoffed at or walked away
cross-examination, Mother testified that, when discipline was
necessary, the children were "either grounded or a
privilege is taken away, or they have a lengthy discussion if
it's something minor about what happened, how to fix it,
how to keep it from happening again." Mother did most of
the disciplining of the girls when they were with her;
Stepfather "had a couple of discussions with the girls,
but that's it." Mother testified that Alyssa had
"received a couple of spankings from [Stepfather]. He
does not spank my children at all." For the most part,
Mother stated, the children were disciplined the same. She
testified that they were all treated equally in her house.
parties' oldest child, Amaya, testified that she would be
thirteen in September of that year. She lived primarily with
Father and Stepmother.Amaya testified that, just a few days
before the hearing, Father and Stepmother told the three
girls that Father and Stepmother "could get taken away
to jail or Brionna and Zander [their stepsiblings] could get
taken away, and like the reason we are in court right now is
because we stir the pot." The incident started when Kamryn
pulled a wire out of Stepmother's bathing suit and
Stepmother got mad; the girls told their grandmother that
Stepmother got mad at them, and Stepmother found out that
they had talked to their grandmother. This prompted
Stepmother to talk to the girls about stirring the pot and to
blame them for the current situation. After the July 5 court
date (when the parties were instructed not to talk to the
children about the case), Amaya heard Stepmother ask Kendyl
and Kamryn, "Are you scared of me?"
how she was disciplined at their home, Amaya stated that she
was usually spanked or grounded. When the children "back
talked, " Father and Stepmother would "pop"
the children in the mouth. This had occurred in the last four
years. If Father or Stepmother felt that a child was not
listening, he or she would tilt the child's head up with
their index finger and thumb. Amaya testified that this
tilting action was uncomfortable. When they administered a
spanking, Father and Stepmother used, "switches,
flyswatters, belts, hands, and if somebody is doing our-if,
like, [Stepmother] is doing our hair and she has a hairbrush
in her hand, she'll smack us with a hairbrush." They
hit the children from the top of the thigh down the leg.
recalled an incident during the past school year when she and
Kendyl were arguing in Amaya's room and Stepmother
overheard them. Stepmother kicked the door open. Amaya was
standing behind the door; the door hit her and left a red
mark on her back. Stepmother said: "I told you to stop
arguing. I didn't kick you that hard, you little baby.
Stop crying." She did not apologize. The incident left a
hole in the door.
was an incident where Stepmother threw the dog out on the
porch in his kennel while the three girls were watching.
Amaya stated that the dog "limped for a little bit,
" "like he wouldn't step on [his front
paw]" after this happened.
testified that Father stated that the girls could call Mother
anytime, "but when it comes down to it, we don't
really call her in the end." Amaya stated that, in
reality, Father would "put us off until later, but then
it never happens." When Mother would call the girls,
Father or Stepmother would be in the same room "most of
the time." Amaya had been able to communicate with
Mother using iMessage and FaceTime, but Father and Stepmother
discontinued the internet service after Amaya got angry with
Stepmother (because she threw the dog out on the porch) and
told Mother over iMessage with words and emojis.
stated that she wanted to try out for "ball" the
preceding fall and had asked Father and Stepmother. They
would not allow it. Stepmother told her that they were going
to see Stepmother's father in Florida and that Amaya
"wasn't even that good anyways." Zander played
football that fall, but the three girls were not allowed to
play any sports that fall.
to Amaya, she had watched horror movies at Father's house
a couple of times. When she was too afraid to make it through
the entire movie, Stepmother called her a
and Stepmother would comment to Amaya that Mother did not pay
for anything for her.
testified that she had worn glasses for reading since the
fourth grade. The summer after her fifth-grade year, her
little brother broke her glasses. Mother replaced her glasses
the month of the hearing. When Amaya tried to talk to her
Father about replacing her glasses over the intervening two
years, he would say, "We'll get them later."
Amaya stated that not having her glasses affected her at
school. When she had her old glasses, Father did not allow
her to take them to Mother's house during the summer.
When she went to Mother's house over the weekend, she
would leave them in her backpack. With her new glasses,
Mother allowed Amaya to take them to Father's house.
stated that she generally had excellent grades but that her
grades had dropped during the past year, which was a concern
for her. She specifically had problems with her grades in
history and math. She made a 70 on a history paper. Amaya
testified that Father and Stepmother did not help her with
her homework. After Mother saw her progress report, Amaya
told her why her grades had dropped. Mother suggested that
Amaya talk to her teacher and see if Amaya could redo the
paper and "make up like some stuff that I didn't do
quite well." Amaya talked to her teacher and she was
able to replace the low grades. With math, Amaya stated that
she was having "a hard time understanding some
stuff" and her grades kept dropping. The school provided
free tutoring to study for the TCAP, which included math
tutoring, but Father would not allow Kendyl to attend the
tutoring, so Amaya did not ask.
testified that Stepmother referred to the girls'
stepsister Alyssa (Mother's stepdaughter) as a
"bitch." Stepmother told the girls that they should
support their "real sister" by going to her
ballgames rather than going to Alyssa's softball games.
Amaya testified that she wanted to alternate and go to all of
her sisters' ballgames, but she did not say this to
testified that, when Father was not in the car and she and
Kamryn wore their new glasses home from Mother's house,
Stepmother told them she did not like their glasses.
Specifically, she told them both that their glasses were
"ugly." Amaya said this made her feel sad because
she really liked the glasses. She said to Stepmother that the
new glasses "were better than the ones I had last time
because my last ones were kiddish. And [Stepmother's]
like, oh, because your mom bought them for you and we bought
the last ones."
following line of questioning took place regarding the
children's care during the work week:
Q. Is your dad home a lot or is he gone quite a bit?
A. He's at work most during the week.
Q. Okay. And then who-does [Stepmother] work?
A. Yes, [Stepmother] works.
Q. Okay. So who keeps you girls when he and [Stepmother] are
A. [Stepmother's] mom until like 12:00 in the afternoon.
Q. Like lunchtime?
A. Yeah. And then our nana comes, which is our dad's mom,
[Stepmother] gets off of work.
Q. Does [Stepmother's] mother treat you well?
A. She treats Brionna better than-Brionna and Zander better
than us, but otherwise she treats me okay.
Q. When you say she treats Brionna and Zander better than
y'all, are you talking about you, Kamryn, and Kendyl?
Q. And they are her biological grandchildren?
Q. Okay. Does [Stepmother's] mother smoke?
Q. Does she smoke in your presence?
Q. Does she have any difficulties getting around?
Q. What are those?
A. Like she can barely walk.
Q. Does she have any walking aids or does she just walk-like
a cane or-
A. A cane.
Q. When she's keeping y'all, who's caring for the
A. She is usually watching them and tells them no, and then
I'm usually theone holding them back off of something.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Like Zander will be trying to get into the refrigerator
but he's not supposed to, and I'll just sit him back
down on the couch.
Q. I'm not sure if Judge Smith knows because I don't
know if we've talked about that. How old are ...